Years after fire, Dunn: still building Clarke

Her leadership is credited with Clarke's rebuild and rebound.

Now in her 20th year as president, Dunn's leadership has benefited not only the college but the rest of Dubuque, state of Iowa and national organizations.

Sister Catherine met for an extended interview with the Telegraph Herald. Excerpts follow.

TH:You were born on Chicago's Near North Side. Tell me about your parents.
Dunn::They were born in Ireland. Mother and father born in Cork City. Did not know each other there. Met each other in Chicago. My father, as a matter of fact, was engaged to be married to a Scottish girl. She was on a trip to Scotland to see her folks when he met my mother. So then there was a break-up and a delay, and then he eventually married my mother.

TH:What was your father's occupation?
Dunn::He was in the hotel business. When he came to this country, he was a bellman. Then worked in Chicago, worked in California. Then in Arizona, he worked as a bellman and he was also part-time manager of a hotel there that is no longer in downtown Phoenix.

TH:Your mother?
Dunn::A homemaker.

TH:How would you describe your parents' religious life?
Were they pious, devout?
Dunn::They left the church when I was about 7 years old. I had made my First Communion. They had an argument with an Irish monsignor. I don't know if you know a lot about the Irish, but they can ... I learned some great lessons growing up, about what not to do. The Irish can hold severe grudges. So they left the church. My father was anointed before he died (at age 47), but they never really went back to practicing their faith. I think they both had a deep faith. My mother just died five years ago. She was 88 years old. She had disowned me when I entered religious life. Really disowned me. About eight weeks before she died - and she was not ill - I had gone to visit my sister in California. My mother wanted to spend a day with me. I said to my sister, "What am I going to do?
" I had tried to call her every week or every two weeks, sometimes she would talk to me briefly and sometimes she would just hang up. It was a difficult relationship. She never wrote to me, never communicated. Any initiative was on my part. So when she wanted to spend a day with me, I was kind of taken aback and thought, "Is this the day she's going to spend telling me all the reasons why?
" And she stepped through the door and put her arms around me and said, "I love you." I'll probably get a bit emotional about that, but it was a very moving moment of reconciliation.

TH:I make the assumption that that affected you in your religious commitment.
Dunn::Well, you know, my mother came to get me when I was in the novitiate over at Mount Carmel.

TH:She came to retrieve you?
Dunn::Yes, she did. I was terribly lonesome. Terribly lonesome. I had never been away from home before. I was 17 years old. Just graduated from high school. But I really felt this strong pull and this strong call. I don't know exactly how to put it into words, but in essence, I said to her, "I'm not coming home with you." That's when she said, "Then you'll never hear from me again." I think I stuffed it away, Brian, until just a few years ago when I sought out some help to deal with it. In essence, what I ultimately came to the conclusion of was, I couldn't do anything to change that situation. I had made every effort possible.

TH:This was while your mother was still living?
Dunn::Oh, yes. I, therefore, was at peace with the fact that I had tried. When she offered to see me that day, it was ... I can't even tell you what a gift of reconciliation it was. And I'm sure it was gift for her, too, because she never acknowledged anything that I had ever accomplished.

TH:What advice might you offer a young woman considering entering the convent?
Dunn::Well, I think it's a wonderful life. If I had to do it over again, I'd choose the same life, even if I had to go through what I've gone through. I have been blessed with many gifts that God has given me and I have been able to share those gifts. Someone in Dubuque once said to me, "If you would be married, you would be divorced 10 times over. No one could put up with your involvements." But it's a wonderful life of commitment, to service of others. That's how I view leadership. I view leadership as servant leadership, that I'm here to serve. Whether that's on the Greater Dubuque Development Corp., or whether it was on the Department of Transportation or whether it's serving on a national board. I really view what I do as servant leadership, the sharing of the many gifts I have been given with others.

TH:You travel a lot and you meet lots of folks, some for the first time, and probably some might not know that you're a member of BVMs when they first meet you. Have you had some interesting experiences where some people maybe said or did something that...
Dunn::I remember one in my younger life. It was before I was here. I was a doctoral student at Arizona State. There was a young man in the class. He did not know I was a sister. He said to me, "How'd you like to spend the weekend with me?
I've got a helicopter and I'd like to take you up to the Grand Canyon." That's one experience I remember very vividly.

TH:So, did you have a good time?
Dunn::(Laughs) I didn't go, of course. I said to him, "Can we go have a bite to eat or a cup of coffee or something?
" We did. I didn't want him to feel embarrassed, which he did a little bit, but I think it was softened by the fact that we had coffee and I said, "You know, I should have made this known and I didn't and I apologize for that." We went on from there. He remained a good friend. Nice guy. It was one of those moments where he had no clue. If you're dressed in civvies, they have no way of knowing.

TH:Well, you missed out on a helicopter ride ... If you didn't enter the convent, what other course might you have followed?
Dunn::What would I have been?
I probably would have been a medical doctor. I wanted to be a medical doctor from as far as back as I can remember. I often tell the story I carried a black case. In those days, doctor's and nurse's cases were probably as attractive as the American doll is today.

TH:As a toy?
Dunn::Yeah. We all ran around with our little cases. All my little girlfriends had pink cases. Talk about stereotype. I had a black case. I can remember the little kids giving me a hard time: "You need a nurse's case." I said, "No, I'm going to be a doctor. It's a doctor's case." Actually, I looked into the medical missionary sisters as a possibility when I felt called to serve in the Church. I visited with them. But I didn't know them. They were East Coast. I was way out in Arizona. Coming to Dubuque was far enough for me. So I chose the BVMs. And at that time, you didn't have a choice of what you would like to do. We were a teaching community, so basically that's what we did. Today, that would be a different story. If a young woman were interested in being a medical doctor, the community would be very supportive of that. Now, I live with three of the most wonderful women in the world, and a dog who greets me at the door and let's me know I'm loved unconditionally. So living in community, there's a great a deal of support for each other. We do have a rule in our house, because all three of them work at Clarke, that when we cross that threshold, we don't talk about Clarke. Anyone needs to see me, they make appointments like everybody else. So it's a wonderful haven for me. You know, to have the time to pray, alone and together, to have the time to share with women who have a common goal of sharing and giving to others, a life of faith development, it's a wonderful gift. It's a wonderful life.

TH:You spoke of your childhood. What did your friends call you when you were a little girl?
Dunn::Mary. My name is Mary Catherine. To all of my family, to this day, I'm Mary. My mother was Catherine. When I entered religious life, we were given names and I was Catherine Michelle.

TH:Besides carrying around this black doctor's case ...
Dunn::I took everything apart that could be taken apart. My father got extremely frustrated with me. I must have been a bit of a hyperactive child. Probably not the easiest child in the world to raise, because no matter what we were given, I took it apart.

TH:Could you get it put back together?
Dunn::Ah, sometimes yes, sometimes no. One of the lessons I once learned from my father is he didn't put it back together. One was a table and chairs. I took them all apart. Don't ask me why. I guess I was curious. I couldn't get them all back together and they just stayed that way.

TH:So that was a lesson.
Dunn::It was a lesson for me. I think I still took things apart, but ... I was a very curious child.

TH:Let me see if I can get you into trouble with somebody somehow. Do you think women should be priests?
Or be allowed to be priests?
Dunn::Yes, I do.

TH:Talk a little more about that.
Dunn::I think tradition is one thing in the church, but I think traditions are things that can be changed. They're not, in my opinion, embedded in cement. I believe that women were very much a part of Jesus' life: Mary Magdalene; Mary, Jesus' own mother; Mary, the mother of James and John. They were very important women. It was not to one of the apostles that Jesus announced his resurrection. It was to Mary Magdalene, who went back and shared it with the others. I believe women have been discriminated against in the church by the virtue of their birth. They've been denied the opportunity and the right. Yes, I do. Do I think it will happen in my lifetime? I'm not sure it will. Do I think it will happen sometime? Yes, I do.

TH:Much has been made about the rebirth of Clarke College after the 1984 fire, and you, with great justification, received a lot of credit for that.
Dunn::Had a lot of wonderful people with me.

TH:That's what I wanted to ask you about. In the media, it's a lot easier to focus on one person instead of a team.
Dunn::Let me just say the day of the fire, I paced, and there are pictures of me pacing the street through that whole day. Then in spite of the fact that my attorney told me to talk to nobody ...

TH:Did he think that you set it or something?
Dunn::I don't know what he thought, but he said, "Don't talk to the media. Don't talk to anybody. Don't talk to anybody." I decided - I didn't consult him - that I needed to go on television that evening and say that we would rebuild because I had been assured we had insurance and that we would rebuild. I did that. I think that was, No. 1, probably the finest thing that I could have done for Clarke. That was with consultation of people out on the street where I paced, because I never left. I ticked away in my head, "What do we have to do to make sure that we don't miss a beat?
" It wasn't until 4:30 in the morning that I sat down and wrote all of that down. Then, at 7:30, I came over to what is now the West Locust Dining Room, but at that time was the sisters' dining room. I grabbed Sister McHale, who was executive vice president of the college. She had a wonderful mind, just a terrific mind. Great sense of Clarke, greater than mine. We went through residence halls and stayed on this side of the campus and looked at where we could put temporary offices. Then McHale and I went in to the dining room and there was a whole group of people around, drinking coffee. There were maintenance people. There was the PR director. There was some faculty there. So I said to them, "I'd like to sit down with whomever wishes. I'd like to form a kitchen cabinet." I didn't have a lot of vice presidents at that moment because I was looking for new vice presidents.

TH:Because you had just moved up?
Dunn::And they left. I terminated some. Anyhow, I said, "Now, this is the list that I wrote down at 4:30 this morning. But it needs adjustments, it needs embellishment." It was a wonderful experience. It was like, here we are creating anew. And there was still smoldering out here. But a wonderful opportunity to say, "All right, now these are all the things we need to do, most of them today, in order for us not to miss a beat."

TH:Do you feel that that experience changed you as a person, or did it just bring to the fore what was already there?
Dunn::Well, it changed me in the sense that a lot of things that came to the fore that I probably didn't realize were there. I always knew I was a strong person. But, Brian, I don't even know how to explain this, but I felt the Holy Spirit just engulf me and Mary Frances Clarke, the foundress, just engulfed me. There was a never a doubt in my mind of what we could accomplish. Now, those strengths were there before and they were evidenced in certain ways, but I never felt the power, the physical power of the Holy Spirit the way I did during that experience, especially on the 17th (of May 1984).

TH:When I spoke with Jeffrey Bullock (University of Dubuque president) a few months ago, he said, "It's my conviction that there isn't an institution in the city, state or region who isn't going to have to go through something like he went through ..." meaning UD's transformation program. Was the fire Clarke's opportunity?
Dunn::It was one of our opportunities. Now, we have also gone through another, because we've redone our strategic plan. So we have gone through another re-examination of ourselves, our programs. We're redoing our general ed program. And that's all being done by faculty. That's not administration in there. I gave the charge; they've done the work. They will pilot some of that this fall. A whole new evaluation process for faculty, all done by faculty. So, the fire was one of those moments when we took a hard look at ourselves. But we do that about every six years, take a hard look at ourselves and determine... We did that before I was president. I don't think there's a business or a company or an institution today that doesn't have to take a look at itself and say, "Can we do it better with less? "

TH:One of the criticisms of higher education is that tuition expenses continue to outstrip normal cost of living. Is Clarke addressing that?
Dunn::Yes, we are. In fact, we've got, in addition to what I've talked about, we've projected our budget out to 2008. We've taken enrollment projections out to 2006. By the way, our enrollment for next year looks better than this year. We had two down years and that was turmoil of change of staff. If you want to upset the apple cart in enrollment, have an admission staff that's disrupted. So we got that solidified. This year we've had a very good incoming year. Next year, we're running twice ahead, three times ahead, of where we were a year ago at this time.

TH:In terms of number of applications?
Dunn::Right. And deposits. What we're trying to do is in the projection out of our budget is to decrease our tuition every year in the next years to get it down to about 4 percent - 31/2, 4 percent.

TH:So when you say decrease, you're saying cut back the increases, or you're saying actual ...
Dunn::The two things that drive us are tuition and fundraising. If you can't move ahead with those two things, then you're in trouble. The higher you raise your tuition, it means you haven't done well with your enrollment and your fundraising. So our long-range plan, our strategic plan, is to try to every year lessen the amount of tuition and we still get a huge amount of money. We give over $4 million of our own operational budget in financial aid. That doesn't include any federal or state monies.

TH:There was the period (1987-88) when there were discussions about Clarke and Loras College merging. There was a lot of controversy. Then, at least according to the way it came out in the media...
Dunn::I remember that editorial cartoon (in the TH, depicting a Loras-Clarke "wedding" terminating at the altar) ...

TH:It appeared that the whole thing was called off right before it was consummated. What happened?
Dunn::You know, I think there were a number of things. There wasn't a readiness. There's got to be a readiness. Let me just try to back up a little bit. While we're two Catholic colleges, I would never say one's better than the other. We operate very differently. There's a different culture on the campus. Catholic is one part of it, but culture is another whole part. The culture at Loras is very different from the culture at Clarke.

TH:In what way?
Dunn::I think how we operate is totally different. I'm reluctant to get into all of the... But I think to say, that culturally, we're very different. And we are very different. To spell that culture out, I think it's the day-to-day operation. We have a very - and it goes back to the religious community - and what I talked about when I live with these three wonderful women, and that's all over the place where are BVMs live together, there's this tight sense of community. I probably will get into trouble for this. When you have a college that has been founded by diocesan priests who, and I'm going back now historically, who by and large live alone and the foundation at that college, you know they have community too, but it's a different kind of community. That's what I mean when I say we have two different cultures.

TH:So as this process was proceeding, did the differences become more apparent?
Dunn::Yes. And they became more apparent to the board. In the end, I think it was a leadership question that the two boards couldn't agree upon. I had agreed to step down because I thought if we were going to form a brand new institution - and that was the vision I had, a brand new institution - you had to have a total different leadership. Neither (Msgr.) Jim Barta (then Loras' president) or I could stay because we would be carrying the baggage of one of our places. So I think there was some of that involved of the leadership part of it. My vision might have been larger than others, I don't know. I thought it was something that could be accomplished. Then when faculty started to meet with each other, there was great difficulty. Again, I go back to that historical cultural difference.

TH:How did this idea come up in the first place?
Dunn::I think it was the archbishop, Archbishop Kucera, who thought it would be a good idea. We brought consultants in who worked with us for two years. We worked hard at it. But each board had said we will only do this if we can be assured that we will be, as a joined institution, better than we can be individually. I think in the end, they came to somewhat of a conclusion that that wasn't going to happen right away and therefore ... And both of us got hurt in enrollment during those two years. I mean, we got beaten up. Because who wants to go to a school when they don't know what they're going to do?

TH:Or it may not be the same school.
Dunn::It was a difficult time. I think Loras would tell you the same thing. It was very difficult for the campus, very difficult for the faculty and staff. We try to do cooperative things together. Our students take courses on all three campuses. I know our VPs for business finance are trying to work closer together, for cost-saving things we can do together.

TH:Do you know anything about highways?
Dunn::(Laughs) A little bit.

TH:Did you know much about them when you got appointed to the Iowa Transportation Commission?
Dunn::No. And I can tell you Mr. Wahlert - R.C. Wahlert (then chairman of the Clarke board), who minced no words. He said, "What the hell do you know about highways?
" No, but that is a commission of lay people who can look objectively. I think it's a wonderful system. The states around us don't have the same system and it becomes very politicized. Our system is not politicized, at all, because politics don't enter into it other than the Legislature denotes $600 million or $800 million a year for highways. It's been this seven-person board who look at what is recommended by the staff of the DOT and determine what should be done. I found that a very rewarding 12 years. I learned a lot.

TH:If the process is not political in any way, how is it that Dubuque comes out so well the past 12 to 15 years? We had Mr. Clemens prior to you on the commission.
Dunn::And David got U.S. 20. He worked very hard on 20. I'll tell you. When I went to Ames for my first meeting, I was told that Dubuque should have had connected road systems 15 years before.

TH:That was staff telling you this?
Dunn::Yes, staff. But the reason it didn't happen was because of the political scene in Dubuque. There was not the cooperative arrangement. In that sense, it was politicized. I think you've got to go with a strong advocacy. You're there to represent the whole state and we constantly reminded ourselves of that. We are not here to just serve the area from which we come. We are here to serve the entire state. But, at the same time, I remember when I got there, saying to the staff, we're the only city of 50,000 or more that is not connected to an interstate and we have to do something about that. The rest of the commission, we sat down and looked at maps. The rest of the commission said, "Hey, we need to look at this place." Fortunately, we got (U.S.) 61. Fortunately, we got (U.S.) 151, which should be finished in another year, year-and-a-half. It's a matter of the right people were there at the right time - staff, commission. But I don't take sole credit, because Dave Clemens worked hard before I got there. He took that message there, too.

TH:Any time you and I have ever visited, you always seems so upbeat. Are there times when you get down?
Dunn::Maybe, but I don't stay there very long. I'm an upbeat person. First of all, let me say that when I walk through these doors every day, I never have any doubts that whatever may come before us, together we can resolve.

TH:That's got to help.
Dunn::That's a wonderful feeling. I'm starting my 19th year as president. I could not do it if the kind of people that are here weren't here. I hear the woes of presidents. I go to meetings and you know, I'm the old-timer so I'm sought out. Their stories are sad stories. Most of the sadness is that they aren't surrounded by wonderful people. When I say surrounded by wonderful people, I mean students, faculty and staff. I have no doubt that whatever happens, together we will resolve. I think that was evident in the fire. I am very upbeat. I may get down, but it doesn't very long because I always think of a way to turn it into an opportunity.

TH:Do you every get angry?
Dunn::I get upset. I have tempered myself greatly in these 19 years. I used to show or display it more. But yes, I get upset, but I'm very careful about how I show that. I will close the door and come here and maybe write a letter that I will never send. Never send.

TH:If something is going to set you off, what might it be?
Does it fall into any sort of pattern?
Dunn::I think things that set me off are disappointments, of maybe expectations that are there and not met. I feel very strongly about integrity and loyalty of the people with whom I work. I can get very upset if I sense a lack of integrity. That means a great deal to me. So, yes. But I'm not a fist-pounder or door-banger. I'm pretty even keeled, but that's been a growth. That's been a growth experience for me over these many years. In my early years as president, I was much more short-tempered than I am today. I have found ways of... first of all, you mature and you mellow and you look at things differently.

TH:If there was anything about your job that you could change or rearrange, if you had one...
Dunn::I wish I didn't have to worry about money.

TH:In looking back, if you could go back and undo or redo something, what might come to mind?
Dunn::I can't think of anything. That doesn't mean I wouldn't want to redo something. Maybe it's an escape, and maybe it was part of my survival in growing up, is that I tend, once a situation is over, it's over. I tend not to keep it in my repertoire of memory. If it's an unpleasant situation. Perhaps, maybe, now that I think back, way back - that "St. Valentine's Day Massacre," (in 1984, when the contracts of four top Clarke administrators were not renewed). While I thought I handled the people well at the time, I think doing it on the 14th of February was probably a bad day. But we had a deadline of the 15th by our own handbook, that was the date the contracts were let. I didn't become president until the 30th, 31st of January and I had a two-week period.

TH:So that was out of your control.
Dunn::Well, but I could have done it a week earlier, perhaps, when I think back on that. And it's never easy, ever, ever easy to not renew a contract. If you asked me one of the unpleasant things in my job, it's when you don't, and that's true for anybody, I think, not renewing contracts for people.

TH: I don't want to sound indelicate, but you've been at the job almost 19 years. According to the clips, as best I can figure on the math, you're 67. How many more years are you planning on staying on this job?
Dunn::Well, I'm in the first year of a three-year contract. I really don't think about retirement, to be honest with you. I don't know what I'd do if I weren't here. I'll be very honest with you. It's very painful for me to think about retirement because I love what I do. I love to get up... there's a rare day that I don't love to get up and come here to work. It's a rare day.

TH:Fifty years from now and the TH editor at the time is talking to the Clarke president at that time, what would you like them to remember about when Catherine Dunn: was president of Clarke?
Dunn::Oh, gosh. Well that she loved to work at the place. She loved the people. That status is not important. Ego is not important. That's why I say I see myself as a servant leader. That with the community there, they rebuilt the campus into a dynamic place.

Additional excerpts from TH interview with Sister Catherine Dunn
Copyright: Copyright 2003 Telegraph Herald